Sometimes you just have to wonder at how dumb some people can be.
I know, not a nice way to start a blog post, but wait till you hear this.
Not long ago I was coming back to Sydney from a week in the Firebrand London office. I stopped over in Bangkok, and had two hours in the Qantas lounge there, doing what all the other business dudes were doing. Blackberry, laptop, maybe the newspaper.
Now the seats in the Qantas lounge are fairly close together, and it is impossible NOT to hear what the people sitting behind you are saying, even if you are trying hard not to listen in. And, after a week of difficult conversations in Europe, I had no desire to listen in to anyone. In fact I had my Ipod on for most of the time I was there.
So there I was sending emails and listening to music, when the wait-person in the lounge asks me whether I would like a coffee. I take my earphones out to talk to her, and am immediately struck by the loud conversation of two guys, about one metre behind me. They are talking business. No surprise there. But the first phrase I hear is ‘Temp Margins’. Can I help myself but listen in?
The conversation continues. They are talking loudly. Aggressively even. I could have heard every word if I was 10 seats away let alone one. And what words they were!
In a few minutes I learn these two are senior executives of a global recruitment company. But there is more. Their business competes directly with mine, Firebrand, in several locations. The conversations moves from current revenue, to temp margins and then on to which countries are doing particularly badly (Thanks for that!). Then the conversation gets personal. A manager of a particular location is named, and described as a “spineless tosser”. ( I report the conversation verbatim). A second person is mentioned, by name, and one of the men suggests he needs to be ‘boned’, a callous Australian slang word for ‘fired’. Then things really start to hot up. Two people are discussed, both of whom I know personally (through business) and one of whom applied for a job with Firebrand less than 12 months ago. A profit figure for the Australian and Asian businesses is talked about and budgeted profit for next calendar year is debated. They talk about competitors and at one point I thought Firebrand was going to be discussed. And there I am, the Firebrand CEO, almost part of the conversation!
It’s truly amazing isn’t it? These same dudes probably agonise over having all their staff on legally binding restraint clauses. They will pay lawyers thousands to chase down ex-employees who ‘abuse company information’ and yet there they are, in a business lounge, talking loudly and arrogantly about the most sensitive of information. Even if I had not been a recruiter I would have found that conversation extraordinary and irresponsible.
And so it’s a cautionary tale for all of us in this industry. Not only senior managers. Many years ago, my own business was located at 275 George Street in Sydney. That building has 12 levels, and my company occupied two of them. And yet there were 10 other recruitment companies in that building!
What other industry has such a concentration of competitors? And even in those days I was amazed how you could get in the lift (elevator) and hear indiscreet consultants prattling on about clients, candidates and often, colleagues. How immature. How irresponsible.
In our business our stock in trade is not only talent.It’s information!
Information is power, and so is trust.
Abuse one and you destroy the other.
It’s surprising how often this happens in airport lounges. It’s like people think that no-one in the lounge will know who they are discussing because they are not in their home town, forgetting that people travel. And particularly in Australia, the industry is small enough that you will know at least a couple of the same people, not to mention the sharing of sensitive coporate information in a public setting. That is just callous and irresponsible.
I’m thinking these guys were intoxicated or on something. This behavior is far too irrational to chalk it up to stupidity and arrogance.
I would say you are spot on Lee. Whisky it looked like. And plenty of it I think. But no excuse really
Greg
It would have been extraordinarily difficult not to turn and say something. I agree with Lee – too irrational to chalk it up to plain stupidity but certainly not arrogance finely blended with their favorite cocktail. There was definitely some “machismo” going on here.
Unfortunately they are representative of a significant number of people in recruitment industry, particulalry here in the UK so its no wonder we have a general image problem. It’s this kind of approach that directly influences clients general negative response to recruitment consultancies.
However, there is an upside – with people like this in the industry, the benchmark they set is very low so its not difficult to raise the bar and outperform them on the criteria that matter. I also believe that you reap what you sow and that at some stage the future this conversation will come back to haunt them.
Greg, airport lounges seem to create a no-one can hear me mentality plus agree with Gareth a possible UK problem too.
But what worries me is if they say this in public “what the hell are they saying in private”.
Also agree re recruitment villages, have worked in many countries and always seems that “recruiters need to feel the need to be near each other” maybe it’s easy to “get the wagons circled.
Next time you are in the UK please look me up, regular on Bills show and just launched a monthly RecruiterCast web show at http://www.careersiteadvisor.com
Regards
Keith Robinson
Very good post. Recruitment is a small world .. no doubt these guys will pay the price (and so they should!)
Hi Greg
Similar experience was had in an Auckland cafe recently… an eye opener. Made me smile actually.
Also recommend companies operate a ’2 block rule’ post client appointments – as in, do not talk about the just completed client appointment for at least two blocks.
I recall one client telling me of a situation where a ‘frank’ conversation was overheard in an elevator (by a senior employee of the just visited company) between the two recruiters who had just completed their visit. with that company. Not only unprofessional – just plain dumb.
Greg,
Wow! And I thought just hearing a recruiter talk about her day, clients and candidates on the train was bad enough!!
In all seriousness though, it does go to show that people just have no idea who could actually be listening to a conversation!!
I hope the ‘info’ they gave you can be utilised accordingly!
Sadly, it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. I’ve seen far too many examples of ‘leaders’ rising to the top in our industry and yet they don’t possess the most basic of skills to run a leading business. I’m sure they wouldn’t survive in the resources or financial services sectors…
What does continue to surprise me though is the shareholders who put up with ‘leaders’ like this in their businesses… they should be run out of town. Perhaps this in part explains the poor price/ earnings ratios and valuations of some of the global recruitment companies?
It reminds me of a similar situation a few years back. A competitor of mine bragging in the pub about a large deal his company had landed with a certain client I hadn’t come across. Unlucky for him the deal wasn’t quite across the line allowing us to nip in and close it before they had any idea. The client went on to be one of our top clients for many years… I never did get around to buying that GM a drink… perhaps a large whisky would be appropriate…
I have made a total of three placements due to a conversation I eavesdropped on whilst travelling to work on the Manly JetCat. These two guys mentioned the company who was hiring and the manager.
Idiots.
I turned to my old friend Google, got the manager’s name, called him and I had what he needed. A few months later I even told him how I had orginally found out about his roles and he laughed out loud!
This issue is not exclusive to our industry. I’ve been in many a situation where I’ve heard business information that should have remained private. Sometimes I’ve acted on it, other times I’ve let it go. It’s a fact of life that people are loose with their tongue when they’re more vulnerable.
If other people’s stupidity has resulted in you winning business, then great , well done.
What’s of more importance is explaining to your own staff the implications of their own actions and ensuring that their behaviour doesn’t come back to haunt them or their business, especially as it’s coming up to Christmas.
Don’t talk shop in public and if you have to, be extremely discreet. Gathering from the responses above, if you’re indiscreet then you’re in for a bit of a wake up call.
You raise a stereotype of a braggadocio segment of the industry that raises questions about how secure any sensitive search they might be doing would be kept.
I am always amazed at the amount of sensitive information recruiters will talk about in public. Just walk down Collins Street in Melbourne or Pitt Street in Sydney and follow any pair of professionals carrying compendiums, you will most likely hear all about the client they are about to / have just visited and sensitive details about the job they are about to pick up / have just been briefed on.
Love it. They wonder why the term Cowboy was ever coined in Recruitment. Duh! Made me laugh though…you never, ever know who you will be sitting next to. I had an experience flying from Paris to Singapore. There in the ‘parents with children may board first line” was a familiar face that had me intrigued. Now I had never dealt with this ‘client’ directly, only through HR at a well known law firm, but recognised their face from their who’s who of Partners on their website. I was even currently doing work for this client and had attempted to recruit a staff member for this Partner in the past. Sure enough, as I was lining up to use the facilities ‘aft’, I spotted this person’s nanny, got talking in a roundabout way and sure enough, bingo – it was the high ranking Partner I assumed it was. Luckily I’m professional enough never to talk openly about my clients EVER in a public setting but just goes to show, you never, ever know who may be standing next to or sitting one row behind you on a 12.5 hour flight……
Yes I hear things like this every day on the train – people thinking that mobile phone conversations are private. Dumb. I switch mine off.
All recruiters are wankers.
But ehre’s another approach to your answer – do you ever ask candidates to describe their ethics? How they approach situations where their ethics are called upon?
Reflect upon your ethics, you were quite happy to eavesdrop on a conversation containing information you knew to be confidential. what does that say about YOUR ethics?
Interesting question Rob, although I am not sure you would really care about my answer, given your charming opening sentence.
The definition of the word ‘eavesdrop’ is to “listen SECRETLY to the conversations of others.” I was in an open lounge. I was there first. They could clearly see me. They knew I, and many others, could hear them
There was no eavesdropping taking place.
I am supremely comfortable in my ethics, on this occasion, and generally.
Two totally unprofessional, arrogant people caught up in their own self importance. Disgusting behaviour and no excuses.
This isn’t an uncommon thing and unfortunately it’s people like this that give Recruitment companies a bad name.
Over my years in business I’ve learned never to discuss business matters in a public setting because of this exact reason… You never know who is around.
Well done on the discretion for not revealing who these fools were…. But sadder is the fact that it tarnishes an industry area that already struggles with reputation issues because of inexperienced employees… Or at least that’s my experience from talking to people.
All too familiar in airport lounges, certainly not restricted to the recruitment industry at all. I reckon I’ve heard enough people in finance having discussions to be able to get away with insider trading.
I’d imagine, knowing a fair few people in the rec industry that there was a degree of drink fuelled one-upmanship going on in that conversaion as there usually is.
Shame really, always worry about who may be sitting behind you when discussing work.!
Some years ago there was a training video produced by John Cleese following the idiom of Loose Lips Sink Ships. I used to have an historical poster in my office with the very same phrase on it
Shirley
I love these people!
I have so much deals thanks to other recruiters who didnt hide there clients name in a job spec, or talk about info during dinners with friends (they didnt know I was a headhunter) or talking loud in bars.
Thank you!!!
Great story, Greg, and an al too regular occurrence, especially in Asia amongst expats or visitors from western markets to Asia. It really is cringeworthy behaviour, but I’m with Esranur above, these guys prove a Darwinian theory and leave space for those who behave a little more discreetly to make really decent livings, so all power to their egos and arrogance.
On a lighthearted note, may I take a punt that the other guy (not the Australian) was English? ‘Tosser’ is not common amongst the Antipodeans. Being a Pom (I think) I assume you left that point out for nationalistic reasons! ; )
Thanks Doug.. to your questions
Yes, the guy was English
No I am not English
I was born in Cape Town, SA and moved to Australia at age 21.. where I have lived for the rest of my years -apart from 2 in London in the eighties
Best
Greg
If you really want some insider info I’m Melbourne just ride the lifts at 360 Collins or have a parma at the Mitre. Lots of recruiters with big mouths in those locations!
I got into a lift once when I worked for a major Telco. Two guys coming down from the “gods” level of the building were holding a very serious conversation in German. I very nearly said <> when they got out on the ground level, but though better of it. It would probably have been difficult to then explain that I actually didn’t understand what they were saying, anyway.
Ha! The words in the brackets were “Auf Wiedersehen”. This site doesn’t like brackets, obviously…